Now, in recent weeks, we've had lots of
news about flags. The Union flag and the
St. George's Cross have been seen across
the country, sparking both national
pride and from others, concern, all in
the wake of anti-immigration protests up
and down England. Meanwhile, across the
pond, President Trump has signed an
executive order instructing prosecutors
to pursue criminal charges against those
who burn US flags during protests. So,
we thought we'd uh talk to Tim Marshall,
the foreign affairs writer who's written
a book about the power of flags called
Worth Dying For. Um Tim Marshall, good
to talk to you this morning. Hello to
you. Um so, lots of news about flags on
both sides of the Atlantic. Are you
surprised that an issue like a flag can
feature so prominently in in our modern
discourse?
>> Not at all. Um they never go out of
fashion. They're not going out of
fashion because they're emblematic. They
they signify something. Now, what they
signify is in the eye of the beholder.
They're sort of light in physical
weight, but they're very heavy in
meaning. Um, so what they are used for
is to say, "This is who we are. This is
what we support."
And I mean I was I was musing about the
the the recent um flying the colors
campaign that's gone on across the
country across England anyway. And and I
was thinking well well what what if you
wanted to say we're English and we're
proud of it. You're not going to bring a
teapot which is pretty English. Uh
you're not going to bring some scon and
cream or whatever. So you're only left
with uh this symbol uh of what is
supposed to be unity to represent all of
us, but sadly again is now becoming a
flag which looks like it's going to
divide us again.
>> Well, yes. And how complicated would you
say our relationship in England is with
the national flag? As you say, some
people will see it as a a really
important symbol of national pride.
Others feel they associate it with the
far right. I mean, where does all that
come from? And are we unusual in this
country having sort of a mixed attitude
towards our national flag?
>> I I think we are fairly unusual. Yes,
there is a greater division here than
there is in most countries uh about the
flag and that's a reflection of
politics. But I am reminded of George
Orwell's great quote that England is
perhaps the only great country whose
intellectuals are ashamed of their own
nationality. And I think this is a lot
of this is driven by the intellectual
class uh and to a lesser extent by the
national media class who were so far
removed from the lives of ordinary
people that they don't understand that
often it is just uh a symptom of of of
patriotism and patriotism does not
necessarily equate with racism. I mean
it can do. So I think there's a lot of
misunderstanding but I also buy into the
idea that some of the people who are
doing this current campaign uh do not
have always good intentions. Flags we we
we we embibe those colors
uh from a very early age and they're
just there and we kind of subliminally
know what what we think they mean and
they embody your hopes uh of of of what
a country could be. pride but also fears
and revulsion. Sorry. So to go back to
the your your point Anna, this only
really became a thing in the in the 70s
when the the the English flag
particularly but also the Union flag was
hijacked by the far right, particularly
by the National Front and that went
right through the 80s. Then in the '9s,
I think a change came in the 1996 Euro
finals played here where at last flags
could come back on the street without
being necessarily associated with the
far right. And unfortunately, and it's
unfortunate for all the people that
quite happily fly it with no ill intent
to anyone else because I think it's an
important point that it does represent
us, but that doesn't mean you have to
dislike them that it doesn't represent.
But I think we are now going back to uh
that earlier time
>> and and to to touch on what's going on
in the states as well, we've seen Donald
Trump sign this executive order uh which
would criminally charge those who burn
the US flag in protests and but that
overturns a Supreme Court uh decision,
doesn't it? That says that flag burning
really represented protected speech and
they're very big on freedom of speech in
America. So, is the flag viewed slightly
differently there?
>> Well, it is held in much higher esteem.
For example, it's not allowed to touch
the ground. Um, when military flags are
retired, they're actually given
genuinely a burial by the military. And
you just see them flown, you know, on
your front lawn the way you don't in
this country. And but it's equally
emotive. Now you're referring to a 1984
case when a guy burnt the flag charged,
arrested, tried, convicted, appealed,
and the Supreme Court agreed with his
appeal that this is symbolic speech and
if speech is protected by the first
amendment, so is symbolic speech and
therefore burning it is a form of
speech. So this executive order you'd
have to go through the Supreme Court.
But of course, the Supreme Court often
is um made up of people who lean one way
or another politically. And at the
moment, if it comes back to the Supreme
Court, given that I think there is a
slight majority um for Republican
leaning senior judges, it it it may be
overturned. Um it's that one's going to
rumble on this year, I reckon.
>> Yeah, fascinating stuff. Um uh who knew
that the flag could be quite so
interesting. It's absolutely fascinating
subject. We could talk to you about it
all day. Tim, lovely to see you. Thanks
very much.